The TITC inside line with Salton Dong – Day 3

They say data is king, but that is only true if you know what data you are looking at and what to do with it, and that is what today’s topic of conservation from the TITC is with Salton Dong from Hobbywing.  Attending major races as technical support for drivers using Hobbywing electronics, Salton often finds himself more involved with drivers and chassis manufacturers than just purely for electronics.  Data logs from the ESC show a lot of information and some of the details can be quite interesting if you know where to look and not just in terms of what the electronics are doing but also the inputs coming from the drivers stand!

While every user of a Hobbywing ESC can access the data log from a run, Salton admits the data is more for an expert user but he was keen to highlight a little how Hobbywing uses it in supporting its team drivers on the electronics side and beyond.  He said, ‘the data is not very easy to understand inside and what is what, but for us we can diagnose some complicated cases.  When we feel we don’t have a proper sense of what has caused a particular issue, then we can take the data log to further compare what might be going on.’  He also explained how in more straight forward cases they can also use the data logs to help analysis feedback from drivers or check if what a driver is feeling during a run is actually what they think it is.’  With data being his thing, Salton says it can be quite interesting to see in the data from the various drivers how they each control the throttle in different ways.

Working with drivers from all different chassis manufacturers, who are locked into intense battles with one another to win races like the TITC, he is privy to a lot of information on their car set-up etc.  While that information always remains confidential, on the side of the electronic data Salton says the sharing of this information is a key part of his support role.  Giving an example of this he explained,  ‘In Open Brushless because we have a lot of drivers in the A-Main, sometimes if one team is faster sometimes other team drivers will think ‘oh maybe Salton gave them some better motors or some secret settings and that is why I’m am slower’ than the other drivers but actually for me in my role with the top drivers I will share my knowledge on settings and the material we have prepared for an event.  If we see one of our drivers who should be faster we will go to them to check if anything is not so good.  Some drivers, sometimes, don’t believe I can use the data to show them what is the real reason they are slower, and not on the power side, so this makes me like a bridge sometimes between different chassis brands.  Of course I will respect any secrets in the chassis but on the power side I prefer to be open to all our drivers.  Sometimes with lower skilled drivers I will have some different suggestions because of the control skills but I will tell them why I do it like this and what the problem with the difference will be and most understand this.’

He continued, ‘When I collect data from different sources I can analysis it and maybe combine a better one.  Team A might have less in some setting and Team B might have a good element in their setting so I can try combine these and can also tell them each the good and the bad things of their current settings.  Of course the setting they choose is totally their decision, it might be down to their preference, but by giving them an insight it might give them more options to try.’

In modified he says things are different, ‘especially with the top guys, like Bruno, Orlowski, there is quite a lot of difference in their power settings.’  He continued, ‘An interesting thing is only when they have some problems, what ever it is, not power, but maybe chassis or other things, they will be anxious to know others ESC settings.  Because they can’t find a reason they are having problems they want to know everything about their opponent, and it is then if you tell them the difference they are more keen to try.  If drivers are running ok they will not easily change the power setting especially once the race has started.  In Modified power setting priority is quite low.  For example today before Q4 I was talking to Alex (Hagberg) and he asked me to please update the firmware for him.  He knows we have new firmware but in the practice days he didn’t ask to do it because he is working very hard on the chassis and didn’t what to try, although I told him there may be some benefit.  But today already he had nothing to lose so he wanted to try the new firmware so I upgraded it for him.  Sometimes lots of different things effect their decision, it quite difficult for them to have big changes when the competition is good.’

Asked from his experience why drivers were hesitant to make ESC changes he said, ‘the problem is it can be quite complex and they can get lost with things.  If it is not so good they will blindly follow some fast guys but usually first they follow their team-mate but if the whole team is not going well it is usually only at this point they come to ask if I can share some information.’

JQ at the TITC – Day 3

Another day complete at the TITC and Invisible Speed’s Joseph Quagraine has been focusing on the finer details and convincing a few people to get on board with the idea.  We’ll hand you over to JQ to explain…….

Qualifying and one main is done here at TITC, and I have learned something more.  This one is a mistake I see even the very best drivers make, and in some ways it is illogical, based on how attention to detail oriented and precise the on road nerds…I mean racers are.  While they weigh and measure everything to the tenth of a gram, degree or mm, the surprising thing is their approach to setup.  When it comes to changes the changes are not a 10th of a gram, degree or mm, they are far bigger.  And this is not the best way in my opinion.

Let me explain like this: The way I have seen drivers approach setup at TITC, is as if you go to a steak house, order a medium steak, receive it slightly too rare, then instead of asking for it to be cooked slightly more, you leave the restaurant, set it on fire, fly to a different country, and order lobster.  While the lobster might be amazing, a better approach would be to cook the steak a bit more.

Earlier in the race the Xray boys were struggling, and having worked with Hagberg on Invisible Speed and Ronnefalk at Mayako I am friends with them, so for Q2 on, I gave them a suggestion of a base to go with, and have mainly since then tried to stop them making changes, and instead suggested minor tweaks.  They did improve but too late, and unfortunate DNFs also ruined better placings for the finals.

I am here with Pekko Iivonen, who runs Schumacher, so I have got to know his team mate Michal Orlowski better at this race.  Maybe a few helpful tips, along with Pekko being very fast in practice made him trust me a bit, so he has asked me for my opinion a few times.  Without exception I have recommended less, and smaller changes, with one particular time being my favourite change, bumpsteer. 0.5mm in shims, and Michal doubted just that would be enough, and I said I believe it would, and thankfully it was.

The lessons so far, are to create a base setup using knowledge, not experience, then make smaller changes than currently, based on knowledge mixed with experience.  This on road thing really is rewarding from an engineering minds point of view.

The TITC inside line with Salton Dong – Day 2

While it was officially only Day 2 of racing at the TITC, for Hobbywing’s Salton Dong today (Friday) marked his seventh day in Thailand supporting drivers at the famous Bangkok race.  With the bulk of his heavy work done earlier in the week in terms of testing and getting optimal ESC & motor settings dialled in for racing, catching up with Salton for a run down of what he got up to today would led to him to shedding some interesting light on driver’s motor habits and the playing of mind games with motor timing.  In terms of dealing with any issues today, it was a massive crash in the top seeded heat third round qualifier of Open Brushless that had Salton busy at his work station located in the centre of the pits here at RC Addict.  With Game Mongkolphan’s Xpress coming to an unexpected sudden stop on track, unfortunately there was no time for first on the scene Lukas Ellerbrock to react leading to a massive impact that left both cars heavily damaged.  The aftermath gave the Awesomatix team 5-hours of work to completely rebuild Ellerbrock’s car for tomorrow’s final qualifier in which the overall TQ is still up for grabs.  With both drivers involved running Hobbywing, the crash triggered Salton into action to assess the electrics of both cars, in particular the motors.

Salton explained, ‘In a big crash like this we check everything.  With the ESC if there is no physical damage or no short circuit it will be fine but the motor is a physical part of the car so it is very important to check every part is not bent or not broken inside’.  He continued, ‘After getting the motor out of the car we look for any visual damage and manually rotate the rotor, if it feels normal we need to open it to further check if it has broken the magnet inside.  When we open the can we check the rotor, its physical state, the surface, everything.  If it is good we put it aside and then check the front end bell and the rear end bell to see if these are bent, then if everything is OK we put it back together and plug it into the Tunalyzer to test the rotation.  We then also compare the data with the motor’s standard data.  We will have a basic benchmark for each type of motor so if there is a big difference that means there is something wrong’.  Salton is keen to highlight this is something regular customers can also do themselves.  ‘If they buy a new motor they can initially record the amp draw and the rpm to save it for future comparison and after some runs, if like the motor has overheated several times the magnets might be fading, if they are the KV will increase and the amp will go down, so this is a tip to try.’

Asked what is the most common reason for a motor to deteriorate, Salton replied, ‘If they are looked after they will have a very long life.’  Following that up then with the question, does he feel racers do look after them, he laughed and replied with, ‘most drivers just give their motors to me to check over.’  On the differences between Modified and Stock drivers attitude to motors he said, ‘because Modified has more power than is needed motor maintenance is overlooked where as in Stock you are chasing marginal gains so there is a need to keep motors well maintained and for that reason they get more attention from Stock drivers.’  Highlighting how important it is for Modified drivers to regular check their motors he said, ‘We found when rebuilding modified drivers’ motors the wear is much more than Stock because of the very high RPM.  Normally the rotor shafts will show signs of wear, this is because of the super high RPM and this is why we have some basic rules on the FDR (final drive ratio) because we know the bearings highest RPM limit so we need to keep the motor in that RPM limit.  If the gear ratio is too high, the RPM will also be high and over the limit.’

Being very diplomatic and not disclosing any names when asked which team drivers do better or worse when it comes to looking after their motors, he did say, ‘Modified guys I think they need to be careful, they need to actually rebuild their motors often because we always think ah brushless motors are zero maintenance and you can use them a long time but actually it’s not like a real electric car that you don’t need to go to the service.  The bearing inside the motor usually has a max limit of 70,000 rpm but now in Modified Touring Car our motors are easily over 70,000 rpm so its already on the limit so that is why the shaft is sometimes wearing because it is rotating in the bearing and slipping.’

Asking Salton what is the most common thing customers come to him for, he said it is usually to do with setting the timing on the motor as many don’t feel confident in getting it right when it can be very critical.  This led him on to a point about having the fastest car on the straight not being the key to being fast.  ‘Lots of drivers will see a faster car on the straight and this gets into their head.  Then they come to us saying my car is not fast enough but actually this (outright speed) is not the only thing to being faster, the 5-minute average is the most important.  Our data is basically collected by team drivers.  They test it over lots of 5-minutes and overall we will find a balance on the perfect timing and also for different batteries and different driving style they will also bring different results.  So when a car passes you on the straight maybe it’s just one lap but it is the 5-minutes that counts.’  There are rumours that some drivers have played this mind game in testing here at the TITC, running 3-laps before pitting for a fresh battery for a second go at 3-laps to try get an impressive time on the board.  Salton said in many case when they have turned up the speed on motors, many drivers return to get it reduced again because while the lap time might go down it compromises their overall performance as it drops off over the run.